| The DistantCollegian has responded to my latest post on rational values here and here. My response is as follows: I think your recent post(s) cleared a lot of things up for me, thanks. I think the majority of the rationalist/empiricists preceded or proceded most of the recent stuff I've been looking into (Kierkegaard and on + Plato), so it's a region of history and philosophy I'm regrettable relatively ignorant of. That being so, you are correct that I missed British philosophy in my break down, as well as, missing the importance of Sartre's use of the term "a priori", which I minimized. The moral of the story is that history is important for better understanding the present (err, more recent history).  Underground ManDostoevski is sometimes considered a proto-existentialist (and, being Russian, is if anything even crazier than the Western variety.) Now, his insane book, Underground Man...(I have just saved my readers approximately 600 pages of Russian literature and incalculable headache.) - DistantCollegian Thanks! Even better than Clif Notes! :) McDonald's ValuesBrenden, however, treats Heather as a rationalist, because she believes that reason can support conservative values, not just experimental and scientific findings. While I must grant that she did, in fact, say that, I cannot accept that she means it. "Values," used in its modern sense, dates from the late nineteenth century, and means subjectively chosen beliefs, as distinct from Facts. When you call beliefs values instead of principles, you are, by definition, saying that they lack rational support. You yourself recognized Heather's understanding of "reason" as scientific and fact-based, and critiqued it as inadequate due to its lack of support for ultimate ends. - DistantCollegian I am inclined to think you are correct in your interpretation (even though it leads here statement to become an oxymoron). Few, if any, people have ever been 100% consistent in their world views. However, it seems to me that even many well known Empiricists, such as Locke, based their political arguments, which influenced our Declaration of Independence, upon an appeal to rights "endowed by our Creator". In other words, even the Empiricists seemed to accept at some level that a divine mandate was necessary to establish any moral system, including the justification for the mere basis of government and governing mandates. This necessity of God is my primary point, and many who claim, like McDonald, that Conservative "values/policies" can or should be supported with reason are really trying to place the burden of proving a moral system without God upon those of us who hold such values and support such policies. Therefore, my primary point here is that, and it seems we agree on this, that not only is this an unfair burden, as it implies that God is a useless concept unnecessary for everyday life, but this is also an impossible burden. Which Came First, the Divine Mind or A Priori Law?I'm afraid I still do not fully understand your argument on this point. First, I understood your argument as follows: A prior means an idea or concept that exists absolutely before it is 'discovered' or thought. If a priori good is the product of an infinite and perfect mind, the mind/thought precedes the idea (which contradicts the definition of a priori). Apparently, this was incorrect. Are you now saying that you are arguing as follows? A priori good is an moral standard. If a perfectly good mind is required to produce a priori good, there is no standard prior to the production of the good by which to determine the perfection of the perfectly good mind. Is my second understanding correct? If so, I remain unconvinced. First, I am not entirely sure that Sartre is using perfect with a connection to goodness. It seems to me that what he is probably using the word to mean is "without error", in much the same way I might describe the ideal computer. Thus, this mind that Sartre refers to is not morally perfect, but rationally perfect, in which the pre-existence of a moral standard by which to judge its perfection is irrelevant. Second, I am not entirely sure that the temporal conundrum you suggest is really a problem. If a mind produces this a prior standard of good, and then, upon examination of that mind, we discover it to be perfect with regard to that previously determined standard of good, I see no problem with declarations afterwards that the mind is perfect. In other words, while "there is no a priori basis for doing so" in times preceding that, once the standard exists, there is an a priori basis for doing so afterwards, a period of time in which we are now living. Third, fastforwarding to your closing paragraph on this topic, I think you might be right here: God does not only think Truth, he is Truth...in fact God's consciousness and Truth are both eternal - DistantCollegian However, I would add that God really is not a temporal creature as we are. Thus, he not only is Truth, He knows all truth and comprehends all truth at all times. He may even also think all thoughts at all times. Thus, the error in our previous discussion may be inherently in error in that it discusses temporal issues where there are none. God simultaneously thinks truth and is truth, and there has never been a "time" when He did one without the other. However, I'm not sure I accept or understand your argument on logical precedence, or that "the Father logically precedes the Son". What does it mean for a person to precede another? Are you simply speaking in terms of authority? If so, how does this apply to God being/thinking the good? Necessity of Divine Good by EliminationUnder this point, I argued that there are three logically possible sources for a moral standard: 1 - The impersonal universe 2 - An impersonal being 3 - A personal being (God)
While the DistantCollegian appears to agree with me in rejecting the first possibility, he is not so ready to reject the 2nd. I will admit the case for the first one seems much easier, but I am still convinced that the 2nd should be rejected as well. As the DistantCollegian pointed out, I claimed that the 2nd case was really quite similar to the first, and a moral system demands an absolute imperative to follow it, which does not seem capable of proceding from an impersonal force. Rather, he argues whether a system cares whether one follows it or not, that does not makes its dictums any less true. As an example, he uses the system of mathematics. To the contrary, it seems to me that this is an excellent example of what I meant. For example, according to Mathematical Law, 2+2=4. However, as I pointed out, Mathematics does not care whether you wish to follow this law or not. For example, according to Mathematically Law, 2+2=4. But what imperative is there to dictate that I should not act as if 2+2=5? Sure, it would be stupid, just as braking what many of us would consider to be moral law would be stupid, but I do not see how such principles can be extended to imperatives which justify any civil laws, such as restitution, imprisonment, or execution. The Distant Collegian also takes issue with my argument for the addendum that this personal being be "morally authoritative": Well, yes. But this begs the question where this personal being gets his moral authority. It cannot come from his simply thinking it, for then it would have no more validity than your hapless superior man, philosopher king, or human god. I apologize for leaving the argument incomplete. The difference between the being in question (God) and any random man is that God, as the creator of not only all men but of all that men see, is logically justified as being their superior and dispensing "inalienable rights" and imperative morals unlike those who are equals (men). KierkegaardIncidentally, if it is indeed true that God (arbitrarily?) thought his moral laws into existence, then it would actually seem that Kierkegaard is right in his famous essay of the Sacrifice of Isaac story. Human beings might, through reason, discover a priori moral law; but pure faith in God is a still higher realm, so rejecting a priori moral law in favor of the leap of faith is the greatest demonstration of faith. Thus, Abraham was so devoted to God that he transcended his ethical ideals in order to obey him, and was therefore the great hero of the faith. So if God's will is prior to the a priori, it would seem that Kierkegaard was essentially right. Rationalism ought after all to be rejected in favor of the Leap of Faith, as Kierkegaard understood it. - DistantCollegian My understanding of Kierkegaard's argument there was not regarding moral law, but rather that Abraham had faith (irrationally) that God would work everything out and that via this irrational leap of faith in God, Abraham was able to move beyond the realm of reason to something more meaningful, real, and affirming. ConclusionIn conclusion, I think most of the above is picking over details. The Collegian and I pretty much agree in essentials, but the devil is in the details. |